Episodes > Season 2 Episode 2

Greg Laptevsky episode

How Myro stays disciplined with their data to grow their sustainable brand

Greg Laptevsky, Founder & CEO

What's in this episode?

What do you get when you mix over a decade of subscription commerce experience with a passion for using data to your advantage? If you ask Greg Laptevsky, Founder and CEO of Myro, you get a healthy understanding of your customer lifecycle. We caught up with Greg to talk about his background in the subscription space, Myro’s sustainability mission, and gain some insight into the best way to look at your data to understand your customers, and grow your brand.

Episode transcript

Chase: Greg, thank you for joining us.

Greg: Thank you for having me. Excited to be here.

Chase: So today's going to be a really interesting episode first and foremost, because you've been in the industry for so long, the subscription industry. So that's actually where I want to start. So give us an intro about yourself and about Myro, and then we'll kind of hop into your experience in a subscription mindset.

Greg: Cool. Yeah. So I've been doing this for quite some time, which is both a blessing and a curse, I guess. So I first got into this back in 2007, 2008 days when the financial crisis was hitting and I was the guy selling credit score subscriptions. So this was a lot of fun if you remember those days, everybody was looking for a credit score. So this is quite an explosive growth. So I cut my teeth in a personal finance subscription program, starting out with, again, those credit monitoring services, which was a lot of fun.

From there I moved on into more of a direct to consumer play. So I ran growth for a wine subscription company called Lot 18 which is again, you get the theme there. And then from there moved on to running growth for a meal kit, which is another super explosive category, which I'm sure, everybody certainly listening to this podcast knows. So, more of the same, a lot of subscription dynamics, although obviously there's a bunch of other kind of direct consumer and brand growth stuff mixed in.

And then after that, Myro. So founded, Myro... what is it two years ago or so. We really... The goal of trying to reinvent a very stale category. So what we do is we're building a sustainable body care brand and the subscription and the direct to consumer core tenants are very much a big part of it because to be able to... I would say revolutionized is probably a little bit of a heavy term, but to disrupt a category with products like deodorant, like body wash that have been around for multiple decades, you have to do things differently. You just have to, because our friends in big bulk and nationals have spent and still spending a lot of money with a lot of ideas.

So you got to be different. And what Myro is, is a very different take that we think is just a better way of kind of doing those products and being kind of a direct to consumer subscription brand is actually a very strategic kind of core part of that value proposition by design. Because fundamentally what we're trying to do is reduce waste. And guess what, if you can ship somebody products and bundles, as opposed to having you go to a store every single time and toss an item, it is much more environmentally friendly. So we're pretty excited about what we're doing and, given that this is a recharged podcast and everything about subscription, we're very happy that this like very idea is very core to the business.

Chase: You can host the podcast from here on out. You just kind of hit on everything I wanted to talk about.

Greg: Sounds good. Well nice, nice meeting you.

Chase: Let's take this all the way back. Actually. I want to... Go through your experience kind of one by one. So selling credit score on a subscription, that's such an interesting business. And if I can, you can kind of relate it to what everyone's going through with COVID right now, where everyone's kind of panicking. There's a big boom. There's a lot of opportunity going on, but no one quite really understands what's going on. So where do you see similarities and where do you maybe see differences in kind of taking advantage of something that's out of your control and just kind of making the best of it between, selling the credit scores in 2008 when the market crashed versus what's going on now?

Greg: Yeah. So I think that having gone through that experience, I would equate selling credit scores in sort of 2008, the same way as, selling paper towels in the April of last year. It was just, I mean, it was just an unfair fight. It's like... I mean, it's literally just that it's kind of like shooting fish in a barrel because you're... Back in 2008 when obviously the crisis was all about finances and all of the headlines were about, personal finances and debt the... Everybody was going after credit scores and understanding what that is. And people were just sort of coming to realize that that is a big factor that was playing behind the scenes in their financial life. I would say that just judging from an experience having lived through COVID in beginning of this year kind of being situated in New York city, that paper towel phenomena and the toilet paper phenomenon, feels absolutely the same.

All of a sudden people have discovered a dying need to get all of those products in enormous quantities like now. So if you had a warehouse full of paper towels, you probably did okay. But I think on a more serious business note... I think what I took from that experience is certainly having lived through and still living through COVID is the reality is that anytime you have a crisis, right, there's a winners and losers that just happened to come out as part of the crisis. And it's not a good or bad than you can never tell which, where you will end up. It's just sort of is right. The world shakes out as it shakes out. So, specifically some of the learnings that I've sort of applied, having seen that movie before is very early during the COVID times, it wasn't really obvious kind of where we'll end up. Like it really was not, because we're in the business of personal care products, right?

So the going assumption was that people aren't going to stop using personal care. That's just not a thing. So no matter how deep the crisis is, and no matter how much financially it hurts, there's still going to be strong demand for these type of products. And that played out to be very much true. So we're happy about that. I think what we also learned, and one of the things that I've I've seen before is that as the kind of situation evolves, there's new aspects that come out that are not so obvious. So back in the credit score days, the way that it kind of played out is that all of this pressure and education around credit monitoring actually led Congress to launch its own, something called annual credit report dot com or whatever dot org I can't remember. But basically the government launched their own website.

And although initially all of that demand worked really, really well for the business. When the government stepped in heavy handed and basically gave somebody like a sneak peek for free, it had a very opposite effect and that whole dynamic was not obvious. And I think with... Again having seen that movie before with COVID, we were definitely at Myro sort of expecting that, "Hey, like we can probably figure out how the world looks Q1 Q2 of 2020." But understanding what the other shoe is going to be in Q3, Q4 was just impossible. So we sort of... Our reaction was to basically go back to the basics. Do things, focus on things that we do well put anything aside that we do not do well and just kind of wait for that longer term effect, because I've seen it before. It was obvious that something was going to happen. We just didn't know what.

Chase: That's really well said. We were in a couple of meetings yesterday with our sales team talking about kind of a motto that we're using moving forward, which I forget who it was that was quoting it. But being comfortable with being uncomfortable. And I think it works really well in situations like these where the people who seem to be doing well during COVID and the companies who are doing well are the ones who are comfortable being pushed, being in random situations. And it feels like Myro's right in that category, you know, you had it's, like you said, you had seen this movie before you knew something was going to happen. You just didn't quite know what it was. So being able to kind of pull your resources in and make sure you're prepared and ready. It seems like that that went really well.

Greg: That's right. That's right. I think I always keep thinking about this infamous... I think there's a Mike Tyson quote, right? Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. So I mean, the reality is that is as a business. You need to have a plan, right? And then you just need to expect that you're going to get punched in the face and that the plan will have to change. And you're going to up with, on the plan and then probably get punched again. That is just the dance that you need to play. And that's okay. I... we've certainly, we've certainly taken that approach and some things we've got right some things we got wrong. I mean it's sort of inevitable because nobody can predict a future.

But I think the overall mentality of understanding that there's always going to be ambiguity and you're lying to yourself if you think you've got to figure it out. So you just need to stay nimble and kind of do your best. And there's a very specific things that you're going to do with being a D to C business, to execute on that philosophy.

Chase: Exactly. Spot on. So let's take one more step further into the future now and talk about your lot 18. So wine subscription, this was still early. So this is still not when people were really comfortable buying wine and food and all these things online. How did taking that D to C shift and go from, instead of selling a digital product, now you're selling an actual product. How did that kind of play into the future of Myro as well?

Greg: So a very, very interesting transition. So first of all, I have to admit, I knew nothing about wine going into this, like absolutely nothing. and a funny story, so on the first day when I worked in the company had obviously a lot of wine people with like very heavy knowledge. And there was a, someone there that was working for a Lot 18 and she was doing sort of like an orientation. There was me and I think two other people. And on the very first day, she basically took out two bottles of wine, blinded and she poured one bottle into one glass, the other one into the other, and basically, had us try them. And then ask like, which one do you think is $20? And which one do we think is a thousand dollars? And of course we got it wrong. Like that was the point of exercise.

So I guess what that little experience taught me on day one is that, physical product is different because the consumer gets to experience a physical product. And there's this sensory touch and feel component to it. And that touch and feel component to it needs to really, really work well with whatever you thought you're getting. And like this idea of sort of connecting your expectation with a physical product payoff is really, really important in the world of selling something that is non digital because in the digital land, the reality is that you kind of know what you get. It's sort of pretty cut and dry, right? You wanted to see a credit score, you saw a credit score, you move on. Right? With wine if you're thinking that you're buying an XYZ Chardonnay from XYZ Somali, grown somewhere over the years, yada yada yada. And you get this thing and you hate it, it's game over. So, so I think the biggest lesson was that expectation to pay off needs to be like crisp if it's not you're in trouble.

Chase: So the way we refer to that internally recharges, that's your unboxing experience. So it's.... That's what a lot of people are missing about not being able to walk through a mall and touch and hold a pair of shoes, whatever it is, a shirt that you're putting on. Is that you can go online and you can buy whatever it is you want. And you can have this expectation of like, this is exactly what I need, but when it gets shipped to your house and actually open it, that has to stick, that has to be experience that you're looking for. And that's what a lot of people miss out on actually. Is that just because you have a product, when you think you have a really good product, what you think and what the customer thinks are different things, and those need to line up to be successful.

Greg: That's right. That's right. And that's exactly a great way of kind of manifesting that thought. I mean, I think the way that we've sort of thought about it, the way that I've thought about it over the years is that the business question is how do you sort of take that insight and what do you do with it. Right? And the way that we've always the way that I've sort of internalized that idea is that when you think about your product experience, when you think about your sales experience, it needs to really be broken out into chunks. Right? And the first chunk is this, like the sales chunk, that's pretty clear. You got to get credit card on file people in the door. The second chunk is this onboarding experience, unboxing, whatever you want to call it. Right?

Like this moment of truth, right. But then there's the third chunk, which is once you've unboxed that shoe and it actually meets your expectation. How do you make sure that that shoe continues to meet that expectation multiple months, quarters, or years. Whatever it is, your life cycle, right afterwards, that is like the third chunk, which is a whole other can of worms that also needs to be thought about, just in a distinct way. So, the magic to... a lot of the, kind of these subscription businesses and Myra, certainly isn't any different, is really dissecting and optimizing this, entire funnel. Right? The initial exposure, the sale, the onboarding, and then the kind of the post onboarding. And it's hard. It's literally hard to get it right. But when you do, it's magical.

Chase: So I'm going to ask you a really generic question and let you run with it. because I don't want to have any kind of leading questions here, but how do you do that? How do you take your data and essentially massage it and figure it out, this works, this doesn't work. Maybe we should try that. And how does that apply to the future and making sure people come back and reorder.

Greg: Yeah. So that's the million dollar question all the time. Right? So I don't profess to have all the answers, but I can certainly tell you how I've approached it over the years and certainly what we do with Myro and by no stretch of imagination, I'm implying that we've got it solved. I mean, I think in many respects it starts, with the basics. First thing is you got to know, you've got to have the data. Like it's pretty basic. And I know we talk about it and there's like countless webinars that I get emails about. Data this and data that.

Chase: You're talking data.

Greg: You got to have data, but like, it's not... It's like just plugging in Google analytics or whatever warehouse you're using and then swimming in the gazillion reports that you know nothing about. Like that doesn't help. That's not the data that I'm talking about. I'm talking about having data that actually maps against that life cycle. Like if you think about, again, that lifecycle in three stages, sale, onboarding, post onboarding, like having specific KPIs or whatever measurements are relevant to you around each one of those key distinct areas of consumer journey.

Greg: So getting that and getting that in a way that you believe. It doesn't... it's almost like it doesn't need to be 100% accurate. Because I've... I know I went down a million rabbit holes where you just see something off and it's like, why is it happening? And you just don't trust the data. What I've sort of learned over the years is that you're never going to get it perfect. And that's okay, but it needs to be consistent. Like if you just needs to be consistent and believable, you need to trust the fact that you may not actually know. You know, for example, whether you have a Facebook, whether your Facebook pixel will actually match the Google analytics pixel.

So it doesn't matter as long as they're off by the same amount, every single time. That's good enough. Right. So it starts... So step one in this whole journey is just figuring out a set of data packs or like a set of KPIs. And obviously believe in these KPIs is that you can sort of rely on consistently. So once you have that, like once you have that figured out, I think it's a matter of understanding. And this is where you kind of get into the world of consumer insights meets data science. You need to figure out which one of these KPIs you care about versus the customer cares about. So like, I'll give you an example. And there's a couple of these that are kind of floating around in a marketing universe.

But I think there's a well-known case study where at some point during Netflix's early days they figured out that if you watch, I forget the exact metric, but it was something like if you watch a movie within the first 30, like 36 hours, then you're going to be a great customer, right? It's not, doesn't happen all the time, but it's a good proxy. So every business that I've seen has something like that. We have something like that. Like to us, the... That magic metric is essentially engagement of you playing around with your scent selection. So I guess the way that that comes into this whole journey is that once you have the KPIs, you need to figure out which KPIs are kind of like table stakes, right. You know, basic CAC, like basic stuff like that. And which KPIs are actually needle movers. That... If they're not necessarily like you... It's very hard to just move that KPI by itself, but they are proxies for you improving the experience, which then gives you the indication that you're doing something right. And therefore move people along that journey.

So I think figuring out it's easier said than done, it's really complicated to understand what it really is for your business, because it does take a lot of, I would say very uncomfortable conversations. Like a lot of people like myself or love to geek out over spreadsheets, but it's a very different skillset to like call up a bunch of customers to just ask them. It's just different. So figuring out and teasing out like what these magic moments are and how do you see them in the numbers that you love is complicated. But once you have that, then you kind of know, okay, well, I know what my sort of journey looks like.

I understand what numbers to look for. I understand what these magic proxies for identifying customer successes, each stages. So then you go into the hard parts and start generating ideas around, "well, how can you move these proxies to be better, to be higher." Or whatever is the direction of the metric you're tracking. So it really kind of... It starts in a sort of, in a very... The idea is very simple. I figure out what you want and then optimize off of it. But obviously doing it is really, really difficult. And then navigating everything that comes along with obviously unlimited information and again, this uncomfortable combination of consumer insight and just stitching it to like GA data or database data is the complex piece.

But if you can figure out a system where you'll have a team or a people or a data set or a process that gives you an ability to look at these things, to look at this whole journey on an ongoing basis. And then treat your projects against that journey. I think what you will see very quickly is that you start to get a feel for what types of areas and projects and improvements, move the needle. And that's what you do to improve acquisition, retention, life's... Lifetime value and kind of all of the financial KPIs that come out of that. That was the long answer. Hopefully you don't lose me halfway.

Chase: So just a really quick, simple equation is all you're looking for here.

Greg: That's right. That's right.

Chase: I had never heard that Netflix case study. There there's a Twitter one that I heard that it was something like if you made... If you follow 20 people within your first week, you're... It's like 98% retention. Like if you use the platform, it's very directional that you're going to get to where you can go.

Greg: That's right. That's right. Yeah there's a couple of these out there.

Chase: So you use a lot of really cool words and really cool analogies that aren't buzzwords, which is my favorite part of this whole thing. You know, every time people talk data it's, "you got to do this, and you have to make sure that CSC is on point and you have higher lifetime value." And just looks so simple. So how do you take that balance of the super long customer journey and all of this data and weave all of that into essentially say, "Hey, we're going to try this, this and this thing. We're going try these three things and give it a month or two months and see what happens to or LTV or see what happens to our retention or see what happens or CAC." And then really try to dial in and say, "okay, that one worked. That one didn't." Like, "let's lean into this more. Let's not lean into that more." Does that factor into product development? Does that factor into marketing or is it just all of the above? How does, how do you think about that?

Greg: Yeah. Well, I mean, I know what the right answer is. The right answer is the detector isn't everything. Right? And you're supposed to... If you are getting... If you read all these product monitoring management books, you're supposed to just sort of like, look at everything and treat everything through that lens. But the reality is that it's much more complicated because every day is messy. Right? And you have things that are outside of your control. So I would say that my approach has really been, it starts with discipline. Right? It starts with just... You got to get started somewhere and especially if you have a new business and you're just getting going, and a lot of these things are unknown. You got to start with things that you sort of understand. That you have a good hypothesis on, and then you move down this journey as you get better and better understanding.

And the discipline really comes in being able to figure out as you make changes or as you improve your website experience, your product experience, whatever it is that you're working on. Just be disciplined about asking yourself a question of like, "what are you trying to do with this change?" It sounds very simple, but it's actually very powerful because if you know, I'll give you an example. Like if you know that you're making an adjustment, let's say to the site, because you feel like there's a better way of... A better checkout button or something like that. I think asking yourself a question of, "okay, well, if I do this, what is it going to do? Like, is it going to move my click-through rate? Is it going to move my conversion rates? Does it improve some awareness metric? Like what is it going to do?"

And what that discipline really allows you to do is just get into the mode of trying to understand, "A" which metrics matter and which ones don't, and it gets you and your team talking about things that ultimately move the needle. So, I would say that again, there's no magic formula. It's... This stuff is complicated and every business and every site and every experience is different, but I think getting into the discipline of understanding, what is the expected change going to actually do. That gets the conversation started and it tends to get you to the right place.

Chase: So I want to double click on that for just a second. Because I was actually going to ask you a question about bias. Because a lot of data comes with, "Oh, I think this is going to happen." And you try and make the data fit that. So it sounds like you're doing it in a way where you look at the data first and then you make your hypothesis and you say, "if we change this button, here's what it's going to do." And then you test against that hypothesis and against the data. Where it seems like most companies and most people will do "Hey, I think changing this button is going to improve click-through rate. Let's try it." Without any kind baseline, without any kind of data, without any kind of knowledge of what happened in the past and where you're going. So it's... You're kind of taking even more data approach in that way.

Greg: We try to. I mean, I'm not going to... I mean, we're definitely... Look the reality is that everyday is messy and that you have different things. But we try and we certainly try to "A" understand historical perspective. If you have already... So I'll give you again, a good example. So let me kind of maybe set up the stage on how Myro subscription works and then I'll explain how this fits into your question. So the way that Myra works is that a consumer comes to the website, they purchase something called a starter kit, which contains basically a permanent vessel, and then a first pot of deodorant. which you get to assemble at home. From there on day 30, every consumer gets what we call a refill, which is basically a bundle pack of four different scents.

And in between the day zero of subscribing and your first refill, you have kind of all this experience around trying the product, experiencing the product, giving us feedback on the scent and kind of all of that stuff. So that's the backdrop right now, going back to the Netflix example, what we care a lot, and we sort of... What we learned is that, that engagement within these 30 days is really, really important. The more you engage, the better retention you're going to have. So the way that kind of this change testing and this basic question of, like asking yourself a question before making a change comes into play. Is that if we know, let's say that we want to make it... We think that if there is a dramatic improvement to be had by optimizing the UI of the, let's say post payable flow, and we want to prioritize a particular action, therefore, place a certain module on, let's say the homepage, when you log in. Okay, sound hypothesis, we understand why we're doing it. Presumably there's some... whatever heat map that tells us something is working or not.

Well, the first thing that we should do is look at what we've done before. If we've done anything and see if making the change in the past has done much. Right? Maybe make things better and maybe make things worse. Right? Sometimes you have the information, sometimes you don't. Let's say you don't have the information. Okay. So you're going to auto-lock right. So if you don't have information, the next step is to say, okay, well, we still want to make that change because we think it will be better. Let's just understand, like, what is it going to... like what will actually happen? What do we think will happen? And that's... That is that basic kind of exercise that I was referring to because you should sit down with your engineer, with your product team, marketing, whoever is sort of at the table. And basically ask, okay, we're going to make the change is my active rate going to go up? Is my cancel rate going to go down? Is my engagement going to go up? Is it going to be all of it?

I don't know. But let's take a guess which one that is. And then let's just understand where we are now and where we think we're going to be. So the very fact that you're doing that type of basic question will then allow you post mortem, once you've already made the change and looked at the results and it could have been a wild success or a complete disaster. But the very fact that you've taken a stab at understanding what you thought would move versus what actually moved gives you better insight as to what to do next. Because if you thought that let's say your engagement rate is going to go through the roof because you're putting this wonderful module. But in reality, nothing happened that the engagement rate, but cancel rate went down. It's a fantastic outcome. But something different happened. So maybe you should be optimizing something differently.

Like that's... So that's the type of thinking that you're going for. Again, the reality is that you don't have all the information. Right? And that's okay. But I think the discipline of just understanding what will actually happen, what are you intend to happen, goes a very long way and kind of unearthing that entire journey.

Chase: So again, if you do the work upfront and you can plan what you're trying to maneuver, what you're trying to manipulate on the backend, it's a lot less work because you're only measuring a handful of things rather than, let's see what happened across the whole site.

Greg: That's right. That's right. It all... It's a lot less work. It tends to be a lot more enlightening. And you, you tend to, I mean, if you do that a few times, you tend to get a very sharp understanding of things that actually matter versus things that do not matter. And you kind of stop working and things that do not matter. Which in my experience is probably 90% of it.

Chase: The same metrics starts to become top of mind and you start to figure, okay, maybe it's-

Greg: Yup, exactly.

Chase: That we need to focus on rather than 30 metrics.

Greg: Exactly. Exactly. That's the goal.

Chase: Let's shift gears really quickly and talk about sustainability. I know Myro has an awesome mission about sustainability and with Earth Day coming up. I know that that's probably very top of mind for you in the company.

Greg: It is.

Chase: Talk a little bit about what sustainability means to you in the company and why Earth Day is such a big day for you.

Greg: Yeah, so we built Myro and we founded Myro and certainly still building it based on the kind of key... Three key consumer value propositions. The first one is we just wanted to develop formulations that are better for you. So like no boogieman ingredients, nothing like that. The second one is we fundamentally believe that there is a... We can develop better packaging that is better for everybody else. Right? And we have a very specific point of view. And the third is that we just want the products to be sexy. So the combination of better for you, better for everybody else, and sexy is sort of the magic sauce behind the brand. So the way that we're thinking about sustainability is that it's an important component of this kind of trifecta. It's not the only component, but it's a very foundational one because the consumers that we're speaking to, and certainly kind of the way that the trends are evolving, it's, it's a no brainer.

It's just becomes a no brainer. So our point of view on sustainability is that we want to develop products that reduce plastic waste by some material, meaningful amount, with deodorant, for example, is 50%. But get mass adoption. And the... What's interesting is that there's quite frequently a conflict between sort of this idea of sustainability, of like most sustainable versus well adopted. Because when you think about it in a spectrum, right, if you build a product that is the most sustainable thing ever, but it blows somebody's mind to use it because it's either unfamiliar or it's too different, or it's too complicated. You're going to get three really passionate people who are going to use it, but that's really it. On the flip side, right? If you don't do anything and you sort of sell a product that people are used to, you're going to get a lot of adoption, but it doesn't do anything for sustainability.

So what we're trying to calibrate all the time is where do we want to be on that spectrum? Because the answer is probably not either side. It's probably not the left or the right. That's probably somewhere in the middle. And our perspective is that we've built a kind of deodorant product around this idea that we want to retain the foreign factor as much as possible, because that is what gets mass adoption. That is what people understand. That's how they get on. We're able to effectively get the product out there. And 50%, it feels like a very material progress towards plastic reduction. So one early tidbit that we've been kind of obsessing over very early on is something like if 1% of the U S population switches to Myra deodorant. Which is, you know, it's not a small number, but it's not like enormous either. That's equivalent of removing something like a hundred million bags of plastic bags from circulation.

So I mean... And that's only possible because again, you need mass adoption. So back to your sustainability question. So to us, sustainability means making dramatic material progress towards making products that are better for you that reduce waste in some very significant form, but at the same time can actually scale.

Chase: Small changes make big results.

Greg: That's right.

Chase: That's why you're doing it.

Greg: That's right. That's right. So earth day is an important... Is obviously very big for us. Generally speaking, it kind of ties well into the theme. You know, we celebrate it every year. We're thinking about something exciting for this year. Which I'm not going to tell you, but yeah, we're definitely pretty excited about... just more and more brands that have, and can share the same ethos that are coming out. So we're happy to be certainly thought leaders in the space and the kind of driving and helping elevate other folks around us. Kind of do more and educate the consumer.

Chase: Definitely we'll keep our eyes out for the launch of Myor on Earth Day. Can't wait to see what's going on.

Greg: Cool.

Chase: Couple of closing questions for you here. What's your best piece of advice for subscription brands?

Greg: Best piece of advice for subscription brands. So don't try to reinvent the wheel. It may be that's a little unexpected, but a lot of these businesses have certain fundamentals that are true and they've been true for everything. Like if it's... I keep thinking of a phrase, if a quacks like a duck, it's a duck, right? So a lot of subscription businesses live or die by CAC, LTV to CAC ratio, and lifetime value. That's it. There's nothing else to it. Everything else is noise. So don't try to reinvent the wheel, figure out where you are on those three things and then try to optimize it and try to understand where world-class subscription businesses are on those benchmarks.

Chase: That's fantastic advice. Last question for you. What do you subscribe to?

Greg: What do I subscribe to? Well, besides all of the obvious ones. There, the COVID must haves, right? The Netflix's of the world. Let's see. I mean, the one that is probably the one subscription that is interesting that I subscribed to... about, I want to say maybe nine months ago, I'm subscribed to this personal kind of stuff... Insurance program called Echo. And it's... It really just caught my eye quite frankly, out of blue, but it's basically, it's like an insurance... It's sort of, it starts out with an insurance plan for your phone, but it sort of extends to anything else. So I'm really into a lot of like biking and hiking. So I have a lot of gear and like things happened that I gear all the time. So the, the insurance plan, which is on subscription for obvious reasons is basically on any of the stuff like that, that you sort of have. And I thought it was a really neat, really interesting subscription and being in this business, I thought that these guys deserve the credit.

Chase: Very cool. Well, Greg, thank you so much for joining us. This is awesome. I love those conversations about data.

Greg: Fantastic. Thank you for having me.

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